Transcript of February 2, 2022 Discussion of 1215 McCormick Rd. Residential Structure

Bell Tavern Demolition, Silver Spring Township, 2017 photo by Michael Bupp, The Sentinel

Ken Martin (BOC Chairman) 5:33 Now, park and recreation discussion of 1215 McCormick residential structure. I don’t know whether or not we want to take action on that and my issue or purpose was not for that but I think as we’re going through deciding – information gathering process and starting to feed that back to park & recreation and commissioners and the public meetings, etc. they’re going to be asking questions and have already looked at kind of how we zoned the property and what some of the uses are, um, I think and I’m not pre judging what we do – it sounds to me like we’re focusing mainly on passive v active recreation – I think that’s come through, ah, we did do some initial analysis looking at the structures and I think everybody is intrigued with the barn and, of course, that other outbuilding – I’m not sure what we’re calling it – the office building. That some of us had questions about the house and toured that. We did hire Doug Tilley , an architect, to look at the property from a structural as well as a historic perspective and that report is available and so I guess one of the things ah, again, to discuss that and get some input would help us direct Derck & Edson whether, um, they’re going to come back with a recommendation but, if we’re going to, if the think it’s worth saving, that’s one piece of information, if we think there is something that might be more non cost effective then that information to have. If we think that’s something that could be non cost effective, then unintelligible So, thats kind of the reason that I put it on the agenda

Jim Cochran (Commissioner) 7:40 Yeah, the reason I asked to put it on the agenda as I thought we hired Derck & Edson to give us a scope – a, ah, first look idea of what it’s going to look like – so I’m thinking how do they do that if they don’t know that building is going to be there or not. I don’t think we hired them to decide the fate of the building. I think that’s up to us – so, as we get closer to this proposal coming out I think we’re talking March that they’re hopefully coming in to share with us .. 8:14, I thought we ought to make a choice here as to what we intend to do with the building and they can use that then as they come up with the design of what the park might look like – so I don’t think it’s up to them to decide – it’s a commissioners decision.

Virginia Anderson (Commissioner) No, it’s not.

Ken Martin 8:41 You know as I look at it I myself I’m glad we hired Doug (Anderson: I am to) to look at it – he really went through that microscopically with pictures, etc. ah, so i thought that was good. And then the one resident who actually lived in it – I thought that conversation was very informative too which kind of suggest to me – It placed doubt in my mind whether or not that really is a structure you should spend a lot of resources to renovate, especially since there’s not even consensus in terms what future unintelligible

Phil Walsh Can you speak into the mike. We can’t hear.

Ken Martin I’m sorry. You’re welcome to come and sit closer. I apologize, I was leaning back in my chair. Well, so – we’ll, we’ll go from there. I don’t even know if I can remember what I said the last 3 minutes. Any other comments before we ah

Jim Cochran 9:49 Well I’ll lay it out. I think there are probably 3 options and Mr. Fairchild has presented them on his website so I’d like to address each of them one is demolish the building ah, one is to refurbish the building and use it in some way shape or form and the third which Mr. Fairchild presents is selling off the building 10:15 – um, that’s an option that I don’t think makes sense, um zoning in that area says we would have to put an acre with it – I’m not willing to part with any ground in that area, ah, I want to keep the acreage we have so we can do the most we possibly can in one location, um, We’re trying to be, and we’ve asked Derck & Edson to be very very aware of, um not infringing on neighbors as much as possible and I wouldn’t want to bring another neighbor in even closer to the park actually almost inside the park – So, for me that’s not a viable option – I’m not interested in that. So, it leaves me with two options – one is to refurbish, one is to demolish. And when, ah, we talked with Doug, ah, and he made his presentation, ah, and, again not exactly what was posted on friends of the farm, but he did tell us there are a number of things that needed to be replaced I think we’re pretty aware of that; sagging porches, vestibules that weren’t properly constructed with wood sills and rotting and water damage – moisture penetration, um, mold, although the claim was that it wasn’t made there, I thought maybe we got it wrong, I thought OK, that’s in our minutes, maybe we got it wrong, but Zack Hoopes from the Sentinel was here and he reported on the meeting and also he mentioned the fact that there is black mold on the property 12:02 I think to spend the money it would take to make that building in some way shape or form useful exceeds what I want to spend, ah, for that purpose. I want to see the park developed, I want to see the trails put in, um, so personally, and this thought should not come as a surprise, I prefer to tear it down 12:27

Ken Martin. 12:30 I wanted to comment too, and follow up on the comment. I agree totally that I’m not interested in sub dividing any of that land and giving it to another land owner because we are taking care currently, and will continue to make sure there are buffers and we care for the perimeter of that land so it will not adversely affect neighbors and then to bring someone in purposely to be a neighbor inside the park just doesn’t seem … I don’t understand why you would do that and let alone, ah – You don’t have to have a property listed with a real estate agent 13:13 to get, ah, offers and I’ve been approached by no one in terms of what they think that property is worth or what they’re going to pay for it, so I suspect it might be, I don’t know if it is a serious option or not but I’m certainly not interested in parting with any of that land – it’s much too valuable.

Virginia Anderson 13:31 Well, can I .. I believe there are some restrictions on us outright selling the property .. that we have to do it in a bid form and the method of doing such a thing is a restriction that’s put on, ah, municipalities so that would be a completely different ballgame of having to try to go through that – that’s one thing – and the other thing from what I understand. I was talking with someone, I don’t know if it was Jim or Scott, about the sewer facility that’s there at the house , there is something,… was it you Scott, that explained that to me

Scott Fraser. 14:22 The sewer facilities for the property are located across the street.

Jim Cochran. So, the drain field is across McCormick is on the low side.

Ken Martin. So, the sewage is piped under the street

Virginia Anderson So we would have to ?

Jim Cochran. So, you would have to sell some land on that side so the they would have sewer on their property, so that would have to

Ken Martin. Or we can have them bring sewer down McCormick Rd. I’m just kidding

Virginia Anderson. 14:49 But those were two things I thought ( unintelligible) – it made me double make me think about it. I was one of the ones that did have the opportunity to tour unintelligible but It was bad what I saw.

Ken Martin. And admittingly we don’t have , when we looked at the renovation option, we don’t know what that’s going to cost 15:15 but I can tell you from my day job it’s going to be expensive because I’m renovating a mill house about the same size structure. Admittingly, it’s brick but we’re renovating that right now. The contract is $2.1 million dollars and it’s not going to stop there because We now have lead paint remediation, asbestos remediation 15:48 So, while I’m a big proponent of renovating structures if we can, ah, I’ve applaud Dunkin for using a former bank building and not tearing it down and building a new coffee shop. I think its wonderful. But there are some structures I think, you know, we have to look at the cost benefit and (unintelligible )

Jeff Walter. 16.07 I’ll just reiterate about selling it. I’m – my issue that is right now we have access in the back for maintenance. that if you start selling an acre of that off how much, you know, does that restrict our access. I’m sure we could build another one but, I really. Right now we have all we need getting access to that property – service access to the property. Not a resident access but a service access.

Ken Martin. Anything any one else wants to add at this point.

Rick Castranio: 16:45 No, I mean – when I walked this …. unintelligible .. I had no interest in rehabbing the building at all. I wasn’t saying no right off the bat to selling it, selling one acre there, but we’re not, the Township, in the business to subdivide and market. There has been no interest in that … it’s been for sale in the past… so, I would not see rehabbing it.

Ken Martin We’ll get there (to the public). I want to give my fellow commissioners a chance to speak. I’m sure there are many of you who want to speak and that’s good. Anything else? We can always come back. Go ahead, Mr. Walsh. I thought I recognized you.

Phil Walsh. 17:42 Hi, Phil Walsh, 443 McCormick Rd. I’m just wondering if anybody has put forth the option of having a non profit take over the structure tearing it down to the original building itself which was, .. 1790 ? What was the original ..

Ken Martin Ah, 1855

Phil Walsh They’re not building 1855 buildings any more and I think when you start taking them down they are gone forever and becoming fewer and fewer. Would the Board, the Township, be open to having a non profit taking on that project so you wouldn’t necessarily have a resident in your park?

Ken Martin. An interesting thought. I think, to me personally, that sounds a little more palatable maybe than a private residence that’s checking everything going on in the park, The only thing – there again – it would be difficult, we would have to assure that, – It’s really that… The farm was bought to create a park for the enjoyment and use of Township residents, and then. It would just be… We’d have to navigate pretty clearly what the role of that non profit is 19:00 and that they don’t assume certain things, etc. … its certainly an interesting idea. Yeah.

Phil Walsh, It would be there for the community

Ken Martin. Are you thinking of forming a non profit. Are there existing non profits?

Phil Walsh. I don’t know. I didn’t come here .. laughter .. unintelligible

Ken Martin. Ok. I hear what you’re saying. I’m not familiar that there is any group.

Phil Walsh. Would you be open to a presentation along those lines?

Ken Martin. Well, We’re committed to talking to and listening about any of

Phil Walsh. 19:41 What kind of timeframe should we prepare for

Ken Martin. Well, I mean, you should know this has to be done. Now, I don’t know if we have to immediately do anything with the house but we definitely have to plan for what we can do with the house because Derck & Edson is coming back in, I believe, sometime mid March or so, and we’ll have their findings and presentations out even more so. And then after that, they’ll start actual planning. So, we want … this is going to be a multi year project but we want to get some activity showing. So, It’s not like we have 5 years.

Phil Walsh Sure. But, like I said, the only other question I had is when – at some point the Township is going to make the decision whether to demolish or not demolish. When is that going to take place. Months? Years?

Ken Martin: 20:30 No No. It will probably be sooner rather than later I would think

Phil Walsh. But not tonight.

Ken Martin No, there maybe some that… unintelligible- but I don’t know that we’ll do that

Phil Walsh. And who would I follow up with. Who would I approach in the Township about making a presentation.

Ken Martin. That would be Mr. Fraser our Township Manager and Miss Palmer, our Assistant Manager. Whoever answers the phone (Laughter).

Phil Walsh Thank You very much

Ken Martin assure, Thanks Phil. Anyone else. Sure, usually there are – unintelligible – come on Eric.

Eric Fairchild 21:19 Hi, I’m Eric Fairchild at 1224 McCormick Rd. I live directly across from the farm. Happy Ground Hog day – unintelligible- Um, I’m a little taken back by some of this. I mean, given that we/you have owned the property almost two years, um You, I mean the Board, the Township um you spend a lot of time hiring and engaging consultants and paying them and negotiating agreements to that end. I’m just really surprised that we don’t have a report back from Derck & Edson before we start talking about the farmhouse and what to do with it. I’m surprised they’re not here tonight because, you know, we hired them and we kind of could use their expertise I think. And I don’t see how, it’s a 61 acre parcel, why, this one acre parcel near the front, should present much of a design issue however you look at it.

Ken Martin. Let me – Can I respond.

Eric Fairchild Sure

Ken Martin 22:18 So, the reason they’re not here… is in their contract they have a specific scope of work and number of visits, etc. and I don’t think an opening discussion about the farmhouse is, personally, I don’t think it warrants them taking one of their visits to hear this discussion because they’re unintelligible hear more unintelligible and I might – the urgency, you’re right, it doesn’t have to happen immediately but we’ve been talking about it for a time period. You were here when Mr. Tilley made his presentation and I do think that has a very very important impact on how they might develop the pedestrian and circulation paths and trails throughout the park, whether that not that property is there or not, how we might use the barn and how we might get circulation. And the biggest thing to me is expense because they need to know up front if we’re going to spend a couple of million dollars to fix up a house that we may or may not see the value. You know, I respect your opinion but I put the agenda together and I think it’s important to

Eric Fairchild. Are you allowed to put words in my mouth?

Ken Martin. I’m sorry. Did I

Eric Fairchild. No, I mean, we have this website, we write all this material. I try to be intelligent and coherent. I’m a better writer than I’m a talker but – 23:45 I’m a fiscal conservative – I never suggested that you use public money to renovate the farm house. I mean, we all kind of knew it needed work, you know, the Township has a lot of conditions like prevailing wage and so forth, and all the bidding requirements and consultants – so it would get very expensive, probably pretty quickly. Um, I do like Phil’s idea about a non profit. I mean, that’s, you know, something – on our website we have lots of case studies and some of them, you know – I think it was Corker Hill, where the Township Supervisors helped and it was done with volunteers, Township Supervisors were in there, you know, renovating a farmhouse. I remember that’s how the Fun Fort at Lower Allen was built – with, you know, volunteer help. And, you know, that’s a great way to build a community and it would keep it in the public sphere. I think it’s a beautiful structure underneath all that white paint and, you know, um, the addition, speaking personally, the addition that’s really objectionable I think is that front addition that, I think Matt Taylor called it like the Saloon on Gunsmoke,. You know, if maybe we could just remove that – I’d be happy to swing the first hammer on something like that because I think we would get down to a structure that would really be beautiful and could be an asset long term. Um, yeah, the Dunkin’ Donuts is great but I think this is greater. and, um, whatever your decision, I think you should know the value of what you are dealing with, the farmhouse. You know, the farmhouse and, say a one acre lot. Maybe that would warrant an appraisal and I don’t know if you’ve done that at this point

Ken Martin Unintelligible

Eric Fairchild 25:25 You know, I’ve kind of been waiting for push back if I think, if I speculate that it’s worth $250,000 – is that totally out of line – 25:34 I don’t think it is. I think when you add back, putting on the tax roles and so forth, it can be a 1/2 million dollar impact. So I say, you know, there should be a 1/2 million dollar reason to demolish it. That’s what you’re giving up. Or that’s the opportunity cost of that 1/2 million. And then if you add the demolition cost – probably at least $50,000. Then you’re up to $550,000. So, I think it is some serious money that way, but, like you, I do prefer it in the public sphere, um You a kind of making an assumption with some of the neighbors, I mean, I have no problem with someone living in the farmhouse again if that’s what it takes to save it. Um, we all, the, you know the lots across from the farmhouse, like from Henry Fry up to the Willits and so forth, they all came off the farm in the 1950’s, you know, the Camelot Meadows. Um, we have, and I’ve really never talked about this before, and you can correct me, we have deed restrictions about how our houses could be built. I don’t know is they apply to the farm or not. It’s supposed to be single family residences.

Ken Martin 26:49 I’m not aware of any deed restrictions on the farm. Are you Steve? unintelligible just, I’ve never

Steve Fineour (Solicitor) 27:08 Not in conversation, I’m inclined to say, as Mr, Fairchild says, there are Camelot Meadows subdivision plan has most of the property between McCormick Rd. and the creek and then just for a limited strip on the farm side of McCormick Rd.

Ken Martin OK unintelligible I don’t know what they are.

Eric Fairchild. So, just speaking for myself – the historic nature was a big draw for why we built our little home out there and um, I’d hate to see that taken away

Ken Martin. Is that the historic nature of the region

Eric Fairchild. The entire McCormick Rd. unintelligible – and that house. I mean, the sad thing about that house is basically that the farm was sold to Mr. Martin almost immediately after we built our house or while we were building,

Ken Martin Privately, a private transaction

Eric Fairchild Yeah, the other Mr. Martin who tried to develop it and so forth – and we’ve only seen it neglected all these years and again I say like Cinderella, there is something under that white paint that could be really beautiful and it is worth saving, especially if you involve the community working on it which I would gladly donate my time working on something like that. To me, it’s positive. Tearing down structures, especially historic structures, just kind of breaks my heart and you really should have a compelling reason to do that. Um. I guess that’s all I can say for now.

Ken Martin Ok Thank You. Yes.

Bruce Schwartz 28:33 My name is Bruce Schwartz ah and I own property at 1025 Apache Trail and, ah, some of my woods adjoin the woods of the house in question. Ah, I don’t know what the best thing to do is and I don’t know how you could know at this point what the best thing to do is. Its interesting. Ah, I really thought , that following this in the limited way that I had, that D&E was going to offer some type of a suggestion. I had no understanding that it would be their decision and I don’t think anybody on the Board ever thought it would be their decision. It’s the Boards decision. But they were hired to look into this situation, come up with a detailed plan, and suggestions. I assumed that the disposition of the house would wait until they made their report that included some opinion as to what was the most viable solution. What is most viable I don’t know but it seems apparent that the house has no value to the Board or to the Township. Is that correct? There is no use that we want to put it to.

Ken Martin. We haven’t identified that.

Bruce Schwartz We don’t know of anything. It’s not like, boy, we could use A place to do this. Interestingly, you indicated that the reason that you’re against doing anything with the property as far as restoration or selling it or what have you, is because of the value of the land. We acquired about 61 acres. Is that what it was? Somewhere in that vicinity. And I forget – it was like – $1.1, $1.2 million dollars. I don’t know the total amount of acreage that would be involved with this property if it was segregated off. Might be 2 or 3 acres because it probably would have to include whatever across the street because of the septic system.

Virginia Anderson. That’s right

Bruce Schwartz 30:45 Your reason for being against it is because you didn’t want to part with anything that was that valuable as far as that land. But we might be able to recoup, if we did sell that off, if that was the best option, a fair chunk of what we paid for the entire property. So, instead of paying $1.1 million for 61 acres, it could work out that we paid $600,000 for 58 acres. I think it’s something economically that if I owned the property, which I don’t. I had thought about it (laughter) but I didn’t purchase it …. glad I didn’t – I would be paying taxes all those years. But I do think that prior to making a decision like this, I think one, I would wait to hear what D&E had to say. It should be part of their plan. And then, at that point in time, ah, I think that we could prematurely probably get an idea – what would something of this nature be valued. Ah, I don’t put much stock in the fact that nobody approached the Board, the Township to purchase it at this point because no one looked at that as being for sale. So, somebody could have, but I wouldn’t use that as a measure – when something hasn’t been advertised as being available. So, I think it’s a little premature to make a decision. I would wait until D&E comes back ah and then I would measure what they have to offer, what there suggestions are and if they don’t feel unintelligible to the Board, then look at demolition, then look at cutting a piece off, and looking at the economics of that and the fiduciary responsibility that we have to the Township to manage those funds in the most appropriate fashion. So

Ken Martin. That is reasonable advice. And we did record your 1/2 million dollar offer (laughter).

Bruce Schwartz. Yeah, I didn’t thank you all (laughter) I know, when I was looking at the property when Martin, whatever his name was, owned the property

Ken Martin And you said, you know, it might help to offset …

Bruce Schwartz 32:50 I know there was a property sold in front of me, that was 6 acres – and the house really looked like it needed some work – not as much work as this particular property – but that was just sold for $661,000 and did not have property on the side of where the creek is – so I would imagine it would bring some dollars if we found somebody that was interested.

Virginia Anderson. Well, I don’t know if you picked up what I had said about – but we are under some restrictions as to putting something like that on the market. We just can’t. It has to go through …

Bruce Schwartz Oh, certainly

Virginia Anderson There is a process. We can’t just like advertise through a real estate agent (Bruce Schwartz – No) That’s not in our hands.

Bruce Schwartz Yeah Yeah There is a certain procedure to go through – and it takes you to the same place

Virginia Anderson 33:43 Yes, it’s a bidding war then

Ken Martin. Eric, it made me think of something else that triggered That is when- Do you think there would be people out there, organizations, or individuals that would be interested in the house for historic or feature reasons that would want to, ah, remove the house, you know, for a low fee.? I mean, I know with Barns and other structures around. I have a friend that does that – actually dismantles and rebuilds them sometime. Ah, uses it for lumber or other uses. I’m wondering if that, if we were to, decide to raise it from that property – would there be an organization or someone that would want to have access, at a cos, to have the features of the house and construct it somewhere else and or use the … to renovate their own home or something. Im just curious about that.

Virginia Anderson I don’t either.

Bruce Schwartz. I do think if it comes down to demolition, you certainly ask that

Jim Cochran. I think that was, they repurposed a few logs were left from the old home on Gettysburg Rd. that was one of the requirements HARB put on

Bruce Schwartz. 35:12 As it happens, I restored a house that was built in 1858. It sits at the corner of Market and Keller in Mechanicsburg. I did that in the 1970’s and ah, at the time, I did my best to restore in a fashion that was appropriate. It wasn’t on the historic or anything of that nature, but at the same time ah, we had a little publication in Mechanicsburg at the time, that if you did anything, you ended up on the front page. I did have some monitors in my efforts and at that time I recall that there was a house that was associated with St. Joes over there on Simpson Ferry that, ah, I don’t remember the year it was built, but it was somewhat old, and it was being torn down …. at the same time it was doing a lot of work .. and I purchased a lot of things – doors, mouldings, and so forth, from the St Joe’s home and .. I don’t know the inside of this property to say whether there are things of salvage value that could be repurposed

Virginia Anderson unintelligible – windows

Ken Martin, But Eric, when you were speaking, and then Phil mentioned too – a non profit. I thought we’ll, maybe that’s another alternative.


Bruce Schwartz, I just have a question off topic. Unintelligible This is my second meeting you know. Do we have a facility manager as part of the Township? How do you… I mean I heard the bit about facilities … Do we not have a facility manager?

Jim Cochran 36:50 No

Bruce Schwartz None

Ken Martin Well

Jim Cochran. It falls under the Township manager. There is not a specific job of facilities manager.

Bruce Schwartz, Yeah, it seems … I’m on a lot of Boards and do a lot of things. Normally in a project or a function like we have … you would have an annual budget that would include deferred maintenance and that deferred maintenance would be calculated and presented to the Board on an annual basis so those funds would be set aside for that purpose. Um, It just seems to me …that, and I know some of these firms, and they are all fine firms, But you are putting a tremendous amount of faith in a contractor to make decisions for you which I think would be in better stead if we had a little more expertise in house. I understand – Unintelligible – I don’t know whether the Township manager has a great deal of expertise, I didn’t look, I don’t know how hold you are, but eventually you’re going to be replaced. unintelligible (laughter) And you don’t know who comes in. They might not have any expertise on facilities. But I think you need someone who has a more discerning eye and experience in place.

Ken Martin 38:15 Yeah, I think you’re right so we get a baseline for our budget unintelligible and as we grow and get more park facilities we might. Right now there is park staff that deal with park assets and our public works people who do some work in this building but we may well get to the point where we need dedicated

Bruce Schwartz. Even if you started a Committee, you might well find there are people that have that experience and would want to put it to work as volunteers

Virginia Anderson That is a good idea

Ken Martin (calling to next speaker) Sir. You’ll be next

Joe Botchie 39:00 Good evening. I’m Joe Botchie. I’m the Chairman of the Upper Allen Township Historic Architecture Review Board

Ken Martin. Can you give us your address please for the record.

Joe Botchie 1001 Ashburn Way. I kind of want to echo what Eric is saying. I’ve been an Architect for, a practicing Architect for 44 years, and I’ve been involved with the Upper Allen Township Historic Architecture Review Board for over 25 years and I’m a little disappointed that I’m hearing another historic place in Upper Allen possibly being unintelligible- I’ve seen a lot of them go – Its great we have the historic districts in the Township to help assess when the property owners want to do something with those properties and maintain, you know, some semblance of historic value with those properties. There are some other issues here. I hate to see all these other properties … unintelligible – I know it’s important for tax purposes to keep developing in the township – and that’s all right but there are some properties along the way just for development – ah, once again trying to echo what I heard here, I wouldn’t – and – I’ve seen this a lot of places when residences abut public parks – it’s done a lot of places and I don’t think apportioning off a couple of acres you would still have side access to this park on either side of this residence that we’re talking about – ah to keep that in place and to have Derck & Edson develop some concepts with or without

Ken Martin 41:19 That’s an option

Joe Botchie So, that’s my feelings – I hope that we all march in the right direction to possibly keep that historic fabric in place

Jim Cochran. 41:30 Just for the record, um, development doesn’t improve our tax status. You would think it would, initially, but when you develop acres and acres of homes, the resources to support those homes ends up being more than the tax value you get by converting farm land into homes, so I hear that a lot from a lot of people that were doing it for revenue for the tax base 41:56 No, we’re doing it because private citizens own private land and they are entitled to do anything within zoning regulations they want to with their land. We’re not – I’m not, I’ve never encouraged someone to build a plan – turn it into something to improve the tax base. That’s not something I signed up to do or I’ve ever done. In fact, this property was, at one time, there were plans submitted to turn into homes, so, we think we’re saving green space by buying it and turning it into a park. But they’re um the developers all come in and sing songs to us about how much this will help the tax base if we put this in um they don’t talk about maintaining the streets which, once they put them in, they walk away, and they’re ours forever, to maintain the sewers, the same thing um police and fire protection for those areas which is an ongoing expense for us although um as Commissioner Martin already pointed out, we’re blessed to have a volunteer fire company, all volunteer. If we had a paid fire company, your taxes would go up 50% because, right now, about 50% of the budget is police – and fire protection would be about the same cost as police, so, um I just want to correct that misconception that there really is no improvement to a tax base by developing residential properties. There is, if you have a Carlisle Pike, and you’re putting in multi million dollar shopping centers – then you can brag that you haven’t raised your taxes in 15 or 20 years 30, 37 years, because, every time you turn around there is a new car dealership that’s paying for all that, the improvements but that’s not the community we live in. We live in a residential community and um, if we had more commercial property it would help our tax base, but having more homes does not help our tax base at all. Just for the record.

Joe Botchie 44:02 I appreciate that. Ah, one thing you mentioned about regulation of trying to dispose of the property – In Camp Hill Borough back quite a few years ago had a parcel, ah, that they took bids on ah that property passed for what they would propose doing with that property. So, it’s something that could be done here, the same way – put stipulations on that you want. 44:42 Black mold – that’s not much of a big deal – I’ve been involved in 44 years as an architect doing rehabs, renovations, and I’ve actually worked on the state Capitol in Harrisburg .

Ken Martin OK Thank You

Joe Botchie You’re welcome

Ken Martin The gentleman in the tan coat, yeah. We weren’t going to leave before unintelligible

Leon Crone 45:12 Leon Crone 1350 East Lisburn Rd. – surrounded on 3 sides by the park.

Ken Martin. Ok, you’re on the other half.

Leon Crone So, Commissioner Anderson sparked a thought in my head here as far as the process goes for the bidding process Yes, stipulations could be put on that but what binds people to those stipulations. Is that something – it becomes private property – is this a sealed bid type situation – which means unless somebody did with the intent to restore the house and they were the prevailing bidder – I could throw a low ball bid in – and if no one else wanted it I’d buy it, I could buy it – and demolish the residence.

Virginia Anderson There would be a minimum that would be

Leon Crone Sure Sure but

Ken Martin. Well, we already have a 1/2 million on it (laughter)

Leon Crone But I’d just like plant the idea that selling off the property doesn’t solve the problem – it creates a risk – anybody could buy that property and do anything with it – that they wanted to do with it within the zoning regulation but at the same time as pointed out earlier we don’t control what you can do with the private property, fault lines, highway that you put on there. It’s a thought to consider what you’re not considering selling off a piece that 2 1/2 acres, whatever that piece across could become anything

Ken Martin Thank You, and maybe it’s not the initial buyer but 3rd buyer

Leon Crone Sure Sure

Ken Martin Thank you at least alerting us to that

Leon Crone Thank you

Ken Martin unintelligible Yes, sure – One remaining McCormick Rd. farmer

Mike Goetz. 47:00 ah Yes. (laughter) Mike Goetz 1117 McCormick. Um, I just think that there is some value some reason that we would want to keep the farm house to maintain some historical integrity of the farm, the farmhouse, the farmstead not just for the new park that you’re developing but also McCormick Rd. corridor as a recreation area. I think there is value to that and I think it would be totally premature for this board to make a decision to tear down that house when you don’t have any consultants report on what it may cost to, you know, tear off the additions, to try to maintain the integrity of the original farmhouse. There is real value in that and I think you need more information before you decide to tear it down.

Ken Martin I just wanted to – not to correct you – but to just point out that, I think it’s more that feels that way about the farm I would think, I would hope, we’d get at least a little credit to start that, And we’ve all said that barn could really be integrated to some of the park uses that it is a handsome barn, and we want to maintain that structure

Mike Goetz But I just think there is value and would love to see you get more information before you make a decision to tear it down Once it’s gone, it’s gone forever. It’s not there. Its not part of the park, it’s not part of McCormick Rd.

Ken Martin OK, Thank You Mike

Mike Goetz Sure, Thank You

Eric Fairchild I just wanted to follow up on your thought, Ken, about somebody, a non profit taking, dismantling it – whatever. On the Residents page this morning I posted a picture, the last page of This Old House magazine always has Save This Old House. it’s a picture of a house and a lot of times they are owned by a preservation organization that takes it over from a municipality or whatever and then markets it, or gets it up to a certain condition and I think that’s an option. Um One of the things I have tried to say all along .. well, also in this old house – save the house, you know, they all come with stipulations about restoring the exterior and so forth, but I have said all along to place this house or that frontage under the review of the historic architecture review board so that we have permanent jurisdiction and protection you know, regardless of what owner, you know, buys it in the future. So, I don’t think what Mr. Crone said is accurate (background discussion)

Ken Martin background talk

Eric Fairchild That gives you the protection. So, you extend the HARB to that property or something then you have that you know further protection and um, like I said, we as neighbors don’t mind someone living there I would much rather see that than it being torn down. I do think what Ginnie said about the bidding, you know, from what I remember on the school board, or – wouldn’t you have to declare it surplus property or something like that and

Virginia Anderson 50:40 It’s very involved

Eric Fairchild Yet I thought I have seen some listed with a realtor, you know, for a price a reserve. maybe if you don’t get that, you can withdraw it you definitely would want a reserve. That’s my understanding. That’s why you haven’t been approached with any offers. At least from people I know, there is interest

Ken Martin Ok

Virginia Anderson: The reason why I know a little bit. When we had the old township building over there, we went through a lot to sell it. That was don’t want to say how long but that was – and I know that was more involved that what you think.

Ken Martin OK

Eric Fairchild Thank You

Ken: Jeff

Jeff Williams. 51:40 I said I wasn’t going to do this but I want to share 2 things that maybe you should consider. This is from recreation parks program abstract – what are we going to do with it. To qualify my opinion a little bit, I am a retired park and recreation specialist. I’m a Past President Maryland Recreational Park Association and a past Chair of the Mid Atlantic Regional counsel for the National Park Association. In addition, the last agency in Maryland that I worked for had multiple historic properties um all restored at public expense and programmed – along with that – here are my points on this farm house: I believe there are 2 things that should be looked at when government tax dollars are going to be spent on refurbing and reusing a property like this – there is no question that the bones under this somewhere could be really pretty with a lot of money in it – but i want to address why – other than it’s pretty and has some historical value – how many farm houses are around that go back to the 1800’s or even 1700’s in South Central Pennsylvania- what makes this special. So, the first thing that we resolve and answer is the level of historic value to the community. I’ve heard over weeks – mostly through Eric and the friends page and I listened attentively um – I don’t see historic value for this other than some architecture and it’s obvious it has some meaning to the immediate community and it sounds nice to have something restored – something with historic value alright – all the properties that I worked with that my staff programmed

unintelligible – one was a historic mansion used to be owned by the Governor of Maryland – there was that tie in, another was a restored ruins in Ellicott City that had archeological impact and, ah, was very different history in the city ah so what is the true historic value of this property? I don’t see it and that’s just my personal opinion based on other properties that I have worked with and seen in Pennsylvania and Maryland. The second piece. How are you going to use this. If you’re talking about getting people to use that building, renting it out to folks, not just gutting – you can put your finger through the drywall according to the consultant – the whole place is going to have to be gutted – and 54:34 you have to look at ADA compliance. I’ve been in that house 3 times and there is nothing in that house that is compliant – it would all have to be changed That limits your use. The next piece if – you wanted to do weddings or something like that there is no place for a heating and warming kitchen um You have the barn, the possibility of those out buildings – tremendous possibilities with those. So, that’s the 2nd piece. How are you going to use it You’re not going to make any money off of it. OK, as a taxpayer I don’t want my money being drained for that for something that looks pretty. I’m sorry if that is blunt – but I’ve looked at this for a year and I don’t want my tax money spent on something that’s just going to be a drain. Just because it looks pretty from the road. So, I wasn’t going to do it tonight – it may upset some people good evening if you start to think – or disagree that’s fine too – and I wasn’t going to do it tonight so I’m sorry (background talk)

Ken Martin The third time

Eric Fairchild I apologize. I thought of this

Ken Martin, You know I’m teasing

Eric Fairchild I appreciate it. We all need a sense of humor Um There is an aesthetic here, I mean um Joe is an architect. I always kind of wanted to be an architect – never quite made it (laughter) but – say you tear down the house, then you have that – then you’re looking at that annex which is – that’s what we call the office beside the Barn

Ken Martin Oh,

Eric Fairchild When the horse boarders were there it was called the annex- or Dave Stephanic called it that. it’s ah a two story building that has an apartment in it

Virginia Anderson Oh, yeah

Jeff Walter. We called it the man cave

Eric Fairchild. So, aesthetically and architecturally, that’s out of proportion to the Barn has a different roof line, different materials, and all that. There just isn’t kind of totally incompatible – if there was any building you probably want to, call up, like you suggest Ken, dismantle, or maybe move that back toward the center of the property or something so you really could see the beautiful barn and we know it’s beautiful, but. So, aesthetically too, the farmhouse – when you see a farm – and I kind of argue with Jim about definitions -a farm is usually a barn, a farmhouse, livestock, a crop, whatever. So, you see just a barn and you say where is the farmhouse? what happened to the farmhouse? And, I think we do have a chance to save it without using any taxpayer money and an option is to sell it, you know, vs. just demolishing it.

Ken Martin We won’t talk about unintelligible now. Many southeastern south central pennsylvania farms have the barn and the farmhouse but there are many farms that maybe don’t have houses but that’s another unintelligible

Eric Fairchild You do, really have an aesthetic problem with that annex and that’s something that merits its own discussion of how you want to use it, or what Derck & Edson recommends. Thank You

Ken Martin Thanks Eric. Anyone else. We are just about adjourned but I appreciate people coming out and being interested in our community, government and expressing concerns and ah, you know, there will be many more meetings and many many more decisions before this becomes a fully developed park. It has a lot of potential and a great asset for the Township. Commissioners. Anything else?

Jim Cochran. We have some more research to do

Virginia Anderson Yes

Ken Martin I think we got some more ideas. That’s good. And I think Derck & Edson, in all fairness to them, will comment also. We will make sure they will do that as they evaluate the entire property, especially current buildings on site. Anything else for Park and Rec?